In this episode, Martin Atkins (Public Image Ltd., Killing Joke, Pigface) joins the show from his Post-Punk and Industrial Music Museum to discuss the upcoming 45th-anniversary recreation of PiL’s third album, The Flowers of Romance. On Saturday, April 11, Martin returns to Reggie’s in Chicago with a “murderers’ row” of talent, including Chris Connelly, Robert Byrne, Leyla Royale, Orville Kline, Alicia Gaines, and Alan Lake, to bring the stark, experimental, and percussive record back to the stage.
Martin reflects on the “Music Concrete” nature of the original recording sessions, which were defined by improvisation and disregard for traditional rock structures. He shares fascinating stories behind the album’s signature sounds, such as the ticking of a Mickey Mouse watch used for the track “Four Enclosed Walls” and the CO2 fire extinguisher that opens “Under the House”. He also sheds light on the band’s internal dynamics during that era, including the departure of bassist Jah Wobble and Keith Levene’s intense focus on a video game.
The conversation also covers Martin’s recent performance of Killing Joke’s “Extremities” and his complex, perhaps a bit strained, relationship with John Lydon. Martin discusses how his museum has become a surprising hub for younger generations who are just now discovering the textures and stories of the post-punk movement.
I adore Martin, respect his career and business mind, and always love talking with him. Hope you enjoy the chat, and to see you at Reggie’s!
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This episode is brought to you by Exploding House Printing. Based in Hermosa, they specialize in screen printing, embroidery, and custom merch for bands and brands. Visit explodinghouseprinting.com for a quote.
Transcript (note: there may be errors)
Intro
(0:00) James VanOsdol: This right here is Car Con Carne. Car Con Carne is a Q101 podcast. I’m James VanOsdol. Car Con Carne is brought to you by Exploding House Printing. Based in Hermosa, they specialize in screen printing, embroidery, and custom merch for bands and brands. Visit explodinghouseprinting.com for a quote, see everyone they worked with; explodinghouseprinting.com.
(0:25) [Intro music: “Car Con Carne” theme song]
Interview
(0:43) James VanOsdol: So, followers and admirers of post-punk and industrial music are already well aware of my returning guest, Martin Atkins. He was the rhythmic backbone for influential and enjoyably volatile bands like Public Image Limited, Killing Joke, Ministry; he’s also the mastermind behind the industrial collective Pigface and an entrepreneur who has spent decades teaching the world how to actually survive the music business. On Saturday, April 11th, Martin returns to Reggie’s for a project that is the most ambitious thing since the last time he was at Reggie’s. This time around, he’s revisiting the stark, percussive and at times difficult—that’s fair to say, isn’t it?
(1:26) Martin Atkins: Yeah.
(1:27) James VanOsdol: Yeah. Third Public Image Limited album, The Flowers of Romance. And to celebrate the 45th anniversary of that record, he’s assembled a murderers’ row of talent, joined by Chris Connelly, Robert Byrne, Leyla Royale, Orville Kline, Alicia Gaines, and Alan Lake—Lake?
(1:47) Martin Atkins: Yeah.
(1:48) James VanOsdol: Yeah. To bring those experimental sounds back to the stage. We’re upstairs from the Post-Punk and Industrial Music Museum, which you’ve created and continue to curate and do remarkable things with. Martin, thank you for letting me into the Airbnb part of the museum, which is lovely, tastefully appointed.
(2:06) Martin Atkins: Yeah, it’s—I thought by doubling our square footage to 5,000, we’d be set for five years of expansion and the place is almost full already. We’ve got some spots to fill in, but we need 12,000 square feet, I think.
(2:24) James VanOsdol: I mean, on the way to sitting down and setting up, I saw an autographed boot from Peter Hook of New Order. I mean, just cool stuff everywhere—like you’ve got the microwave over there from Gang of Four?
(2:37) Martin Atkins: Yeah, smashed microwave, this PiL bootlegs, New Order bootlegs in the cassette room…
(2:44) James VanOsdol: The cassette room, I saw that, yes.
(2:45) Martin Atkins: The typewriter, test pressings, vinyl, turntable… just, yeah. It’s kind of nice up here, it’s quiet up here, which I like. And people are starting to stay here, enjoy the neighborhood and hang out downstairs, listen to me blither on for three and a half hours, and then just hang out up here, maybe read a book and just chill.
(3:07) James VanOsdol: This is a great space. So, let’s talk about this show, the 45th anniversary of The Flowers of Romance, bringing this album to life. Two words come up when people talk about this Public Image Limited album: percussion and experimental. This may not have been a commercial play or a run at the charts from PiL back in the day.
(3:30) Martin Atkins: Well, although The Flowers of Romance single was, up until “This is Not a Love Song” a few years later, The Flowers of Romance was the highest-charting single.
(3:41) James VanOsdol: But it doesn’t seem like a conspicuously…
(3:44) Martin Atkins: No. No. It just seems like a pop song in the middle of the album. But up against other pop songs, it’s strange. Um, people would say, “Ah, the strategy of John and Keith. There’s no bass. What was the thought behind—” and it’s like, well, Jah Wobble left. There wasn’t a strategy. Jah Wobble left. I think it was smart not to try and replace him. I think if there’d been somebody in the wings, he would have been replaced. But there wasn’t anybody in the wings, and Nick Launay and I filled the gap with drums. You know, it just happened.
(4:31) James VanOsdol: Culturally, when Jah Wobble left, what did that do to the band?
(4:36) Martin Atkins: Well, it’s difficult because it’s a while ago.
(4:41) James VanOsdol: Yeah, we’re talking very early 1980s here.
(4:43) Martin Atkins: Yeah. Well, he quit in the middle of 1980, April. He knew when we came to America in April 1980 that he was going to quit. I didn’t, you know, we enjoyed having breakfast together and we were the rhythm section and read the New York Times review together—like how cool was that, to sit in a park? It was like something out of a movie. We played the night before, it was somewhat of a disastrous show, although people loved it and romanticized it immediately. And so we’re reading the—it’s like a scene from The Producers where they go and get the New York Times to read the review of the play from the night before at six in the morning. But so it was tough for me when Wobble quit, you know, we were the rhythm section, it was Jah fucking Wobble, you know. I think John and Keith were very sensitive because it felt like a betrayal to John, you know? And Wobble was a character, a player, a—well, yeah, he was a player in his own right, you know, he had his own persona. And he named Sid, I think. He gave Sid his name.
(6:06) James VanOsdol: Okay.
(6:07) Martin Atkins: And so, yeah, that was a blow, and there were just drums, and Flowers of Romance happened.
(6:13) James VanOsdol: Lots of drums, really no guitar or very conspicuously hidden guitar on that album.
(6:21) Martin Atkins: Well, and no Keith, really. I miss him as Keith. There’s some guitar on—I get these names confused, all my notes are downstairs— “Go Back,” like insane off-time against a strange 11/14 rhythm. But what I would say about Keith at that time, because people assumed that a lot of the textures that Nick Launay and I created were Keith Levene synthesizer genius, and it wasn’t. I would say that I knew which room of the townhouse or The Manor studios Keith had been in because I could see the pattern of the carpet in the side of his face where he collapsed unconscious on the floor.
(7:18) James VanOsdol: God.
(7:19) Martin Atkins: And you know, and I just regurgitate that, not to be nasty, but to like—that’s a snapshot of my impression of that time. Keith was infatuated with Space Invaders and not playing guitar. There is a lost track—well, there’s a few lost tracks—called “Vampire.” And I can play it for you if you want downstairs. There’s guitar on it, there’s synth bass, guitar, fully formed vocals, and drums and loops. And I don’t know why it wasn’t put on the album. I think maybe Keith was in an anti-guitar phase or maybe one more guitar track would draw attention to the lack of guitar, I don’t know. But it was released on a Best Of box set, and I didn’t listen to it for a few years. I listened to it, and it’s just my drums. Like, well, why didn’t you call me? I’ve got the fully finished song. There’s also a song from This Is What You Want… This Is What You Get called “1981,” which was written in 1981 for the Flowers sessions, which has guitar and it just wasn’t included either.
(8:35) James VanOsdol: So, when you recreate this album at Reggie’s, you’ve got Robert Byrne on stage, brilliant guitarist. Will he have anything to do?
(8:44) Martin Atkins: Will he have anything to do?
(8:46) James VanOsdol: Yes.
(8:47) Martin Atkins: Um, yes.
(8:48) James VanOsdol: Okay, good. He’s a nice guy, I don’t want him to sit on the sideline.
(8:52) Martin Atkins: There’s tinklings and textures, and then we’re also doing “Home Is Where the Heart Is,” the B-side of the Flowers single, “Vampire,” and we might throw in a couple of other PiL songs at the end. As we did with the Killing Joke thing, we did three or four songs at the end as kind of a celebration, like a cover band celebration, you know.
(9:17) James VanOsdol: Well, if you’re going to do a credible recreation of a band’s work, really no better guy to recruit than Chris Connelly. He’s got that shit locked down.
(9:26) Martin Atkins: Well, and I mean, I’ve been working with Chris since 1989 for the Ministry Cage tour. And I called Chris earlier this year when I realized I’m like, oh, here we go with another—it felt like an important anniversary. And I think if Chris had said, “Nah, no, I’m busy, I don’t want to do it, fuck Johnny Rotten,” whatever. But Chris said yes. If Chris had said no, I don’t think there’s any way I would have even attempted to do it. And Chris is really locked in. He’s texting me at five in the morning, “Oh, here’s a synth patch for this! Like, I’m doing this texture on a lyre!” Like, okay, all right! I’m like, how wonderful! How wonderful is that?
(10:20) James VanOsdol: He’s all in.
(10:21) Martin Atkins: Yeah. Yeah.
(10:22) James VanOsdol: So, what is your relationship, or is there a relationship in the present day, with you and John Lydon?
(10:30) Martin Atkins: Um, no.
(10:33) James VanOsdol: Well…
(10:34) Martin Atkins: Well, it’s not good. It was okay after I quit, but as I’ve said, drummers don’t quit singers’ bands. If you do, it’s a betrayal.
(10:46) James VanOsdol: You become persona non grata.
(10:48) Martin Atkins: Yeah. But we were fine for a few years after I quit. I’d go and see the band, John would put me on the list, I’d go backstage and say hi. Had some conversations with John through his 60th birthday. I think his manager at the time, Rambo, was very protective, I think mistakenly, of John. I think John needs more people in his life saying, “What the fuck, dude? The fuck!” you know. And it’s sad to me that I don’t think he has that. So, I know PiL are touring later this year. Leslie Rankine’s brother plays bass in PiL, which I think is hilarious. And we’re old. I’m 67 in August. So, in the same way that I reached out to Geordie for the Extremities—
(11:51) James VanOsdol: Geordie from Killing Joke.
(11:52) Martin Atkins: Yeah. Not to ask for permission to do it, because I didn’t need that, but to be respectful and give him an opportunity if he wished to come over and sing on a couple of—one song, read a statement that says, “Martin Atkins is a wanker,” whatever you want to do, you know. I wanted to offer that opportunity. I’m sure—I was thinking today about reaching out to John and going, “Hey! You know, like, we could maybe open for one of the PiL shows.” I didn’t see the Chicago date, I’m suspecting…
(12:30) James VanOsdol: We’re expecting Riot Fest.
(12:31) Martin Atkins: Yeah, which is weird because the Pistols are…
(12:34) James VanOsdol: Very weird.
(12:35) Martin Atkins: Yeah.
(12:35) James VanOsdol: But they could be on separate days, they may never cross paths.
(12:38) Martin Atkins: Yeah. Yeah. Glen and Paul and Steve have always been very nice to me. So, yes, interesting. Interesting. Yeah. But God forbid Riot Fest would reach out to Martin Atkins, Pigface, Extremities project, PiL project, any fucking project I’ve ever been involved with and ask us to fuckin’ play because it’s just three miles away. But anyway.
(13:10) James VanOsdol: I get it. Um, I thought it was fair to ask about Lydon because, yeah, he is taking PiL on the road and the timing is just kind of crazy.
(13:19) Martin Atkins: Yeah. Well, and it’s also—but I’ve had one of the things… it’s a strange kind of unexpected blessing to sit and go through the Extremities album first, and then go through this The Flowers album, because you’re just like, yeah, fuck off, I did Extremities, I did this, I did that. But to sit and pull it apart piece by piece, and sit with a vocalist going, “What the fuck is going on with the fuckin’—” you know, and have different people go, “Yeah, I’m in! Oh, fuck, hold on, what’s going on with—” to see the complexity of the Extremities album and bathe in Geordie’s guitar work and Jaz’s lyrics… almost as a spectator almost—like, what a—it’s something I would suggest for anybody to do. To revisit an album from 30, 40 years ago and sift through it and learn from it. That’s how we learn, right? We reflect. And I’ve found it really special, fueling, calming to go and set a cash register on fire underneath the L tracks behind Reggie’s where we…
(14:52) James VanOsdol: I think everyone should do that.
(14:53) Martin Atkins: Oh well, but at the same time, I’m thinking, “Why don’t you fucking grow up? You’re 66 years old and oh, what are you going to do now, Martin? You’ve got four kids and a museum. You’re going to wheel a cash register out into the street, set it on fire? You fucking idiot.” I mean, that’s perfectly rational, right? But then 85 people follow us out. We have this cash register fire ceremony, people are crying and hugging and as I’m dousing this cash register in gasoline, I look up to go, “Oh, is anybody filming this?” and I nearly pissed my pants because 85—every single person is filming it, you know, which was funny. And then the next day people are like, “We need to set fire to cash registers more! We need more of this kind of ceremony!” And I’m like, oh my God, I’m an idiot. I’m a—it’s not imposter syndrome, it’s like questioning these things which, for somebody who made a living banging on round objects with wooden sticks, is kind of—how dare I question the validity of anything, really, you know. So, pulling this album apart, I’m starting to think like, okay, I kind of like this. We’re down at the museum, we’re rehearsing, we’ll let some people into dress rehearsal on the 10th, maybe record that in the round, go up to Reggie’s, do a show, live stream. I love that place, everybody’s so nice. Bobby up there is just really understanding all of these crazy things we want to do. And I, you know, maybe I don’t know what album would be next that I might do this to, but…
(16:54) James VanOsdol: Well, you already mentioned it, didn’t you?
(16:56) Martin Atkins: What?
(16:57) James VanOsdol: This Is What You Want…
(16:58) Martin Atkins: Oh, This Is What You Want… This Is What You Get.
(17:01) James VanOsdol: I mean, that would be the next in line for PiL.
(17:03) Martin Atkins: Well, you know, there’s Live in Tokyo first, which… yes. But there’s the 25th anniversary of the Damage Manual…
(17:15) James VanOsdol: How is that possible?
(17:17) Martin Atkins: I know. I just found a bunch of unreleased Damage Manual tracks and mixes before Connelly joined. My band Brian Brain, you know, as I start to look through this, Brian Brain is the reason I met Trent. Trent came in to play saxophone on a Brian Brain song called “Funky Zoo.” We played live in Cleveland. That’s how I met Trent. Brian Brain is the reason 4AD exists.
(17:50) James VanOsdol: That’s bananas.
(17:51) Martin Atkins: Yeah, well, and we used to throw bananas at the audience. But Pete Goss and Ivo used to work at Rough Trade Records in London. And before we signed to Secret Records, before I joined PiL, I took my demo to them to Beggars Banquet to see if they wanted to sign Brian Brain. And Ivo did, and Pete and Goss didn’t. And it caused Ivo to go, “Oh, fuck you guys,” he got some money and started 4AD. And I didn’t know that. Somebody said, “Hey! It’s in the 4AD book.”
(18:31) James VanOsdol: That’s amazing.
(18:32) Martin Atkins: Yeah.
(18:33) James VanOsdol: That’s amazing. So, I’m in this—it’s not a looking back…
(18:39) James VanOsdol: I was going to talk about that. Neither this play, this Flowers of Romance play or the Killing Joke play feel like a nostalgia trip.
(18:48) Martin Atkins: [Laughs] Thanks.
(18:50) James VanOsdol: But I mean that in the sense that I don’t know that people are nostalgic for these albums. It’s almost like a way to kind of reintroduce these albums to people who may not have been locked into them the first time around.
(19:04) Martin Atkins: Well, here—this has been happening for two years. I’m sure I mentioned this to you before. Like, two years ago—and you would think, rationally, the museum would appeal to a smaller and smaller group of older and older people. And that’s not the case at all, and it’s been very surprising. Two years ago, this guy came in, my age, with two kids. I thought, “Oh, fuck. These kids are going to hate this. I can make them some hot chocolate, they can sit, hopefully they’ve got devices they can sit down, shut up because he’s going to fucking love this.” And is my swearing okay, by the way?
(19:48) James VanOsdol: Yes, it is.
(19:48) Martin Atkins: Okay.
(19:49) James VanOsdol: That’s why I come here.
(19:50) Martin Atkins: [Laughs] And it turned out that they dragged him. The kids had dragged him.
(19:55) James VanOsdol: That’s great.
(19:56) Martin Atkins: And that was—I’m like, “Oh, that’s a weird anomaly.” But now it’s more the norm. I was up at FedEx yesterday getting some transparencies. And I recognize this kid behind the counter. We’d talked before. I want to say 22-year-old kid. And I’m like—I didn’t know if he’d been to the museum or not. I’m like, “Oh,” I thought, “Well, why don’t I run in, I’ll drop off a—I’ve got a Flowers of Romance flyer in the car. He’s not going to know anything—like, who am I? Like, ‘Here’s this album from 45 years ago,’ like, of course you’re not interested, I’m just being polite, here’s a flyer, just to overcome my shyness and have a connection.” And this kid’s like, “Oh! ‘Banging the Door,’ one of my favorites!” I’m like, “What?”
(20:49) James VanOsdol: Yeah, I wouldn’t have expected that either.
(20:51) Martin Atkins: [Laughs] Yeah! So, and of course that put a swagger… you’re back, Martin! Boom-boom-boom-boom-boom! You’re back! Here we go! But now, never mind Flowers of Romance, people come here who are like, “Yeah, well, I love this museum because I wasn’t born and I’m waiting for them to—when ‘Pretty Hate Machine’ came out,” I’m like, “Oh, fucking hell! That’s generations beyond this stuff,” you know.
(21:23) James VanOsdol: But that is a gateway drug for a lot of people.
(21:26) Martin Atkins: Yeah.
(21:26) James VanOsdol: Yeah.
(21:27) Martin Atkins: It’s—it’s been really interesting. So, I don’t know what this state is, reverie… I just feel remarkably blessed to be in this position. And not for nothing, we’re rehearsing downstairs, which transforms the museum to a place where somebody’s playing through Paul Raven, Charles Levi, the bass rig from Killing Joke and Pigface. We’re rattling the walls. I’m using my Killing Joke, Nine Inch Nails, Ministry, Pigface drum kit downstairs, you know. And yeah, it’s been really—it’s been really interesting.
(22:20) James VanOsdol: You mentioned “Banging the Door,” “Banging the Door.” That song to me still, you know, listening to Flowers of Romance with fresh ears, it really does sound like it was way ahead of its time sonically. More, I think, more so than most of the songs on the album, that feels like it was beamed in from like 15 years in the future.
(22:42) Martin Atkins: Wow. Thank you. I feel Stigmata Ministry vibes, I think that song might have fed into that a bit.
(22:52) James VanOsdol: Yeah.
(22:53) Martin Atkins: But also, in a very casual way, in a casual accidental way, by just means of illustrating a mindset. I’m playing to the ticking of my Mickey Mouse watch from Disneyland and looping a backwards plastic trumpet that plays discs of someone playing trumpet—these are downstairs, by the way. And instead of a hi-hat, I’m using a can of WD-40. [Sibilant sounds] So John sees that, then John comes in with a CO2 fire extinguisher at the beginning of “Under the House.” [Whoosh sound] A-didly-didly-didly-didly. So this is post-punk, we’re experimenting, you know. The Exploited Punks Not Dead album hasn’t come out yet, but it clearly is, and as much as I love Wattie, and we’re experimenting.
(24:02) James VanOsdol: Isn’t that also kind of the textbook definition of industrial? Like taking those sounds from the environment and turning them into music?
(24:11) Martin Atkins: I guess, yeah. So, it’s just interesting, it’s just really interesting. And the other thing that the museum has caused me to do is to take people downstairs to the studio, we’ve upgraded the speakers twice, and then like, “Well, fuck, what are we going to play people?” So I find all my unreleased PiL, my unreleased Killing Joke, my—Tom, my engineer, found all my unreleased Skinny Puppy mixes. Then I find my spreadsheets and my notes from the process. So I’m going back to this previous life I had where all I did was sit in the studio, produce and arrange. And look and learn and reflect on all of that. It’s just a—what a—not intended, but what a luxurious phase of my life to be in.
(25:11) James VanOsdol: I love that. And thinking about some of the noises on The Flowers of Romance. “Four Enclosed Walls,” which I think has aged wonderfully well as an album opener, has that ticking sound, that claustrophobic, intense—how—that wasn’t your Mickey Mouse watch, what was it?
(25:31) Martin Atkins: That’s my Mickey Mouse watch.
(25:32) James VanOsdol: Oh, that was it! Okay.
(25:33) Martin Atkins: That’s it! I used to—I used to travel with bags of speed and just—we were all out of our minds all the time. And I just used to—[Ticking sounds]—just used to listen to this watch. Like, and you’ve got to remember, right, we were Public Image Limited on American Bandstand, we were also children. I was 20. In America for the first time.
(26:07) James VanOsdol: So this is PiL’s third album and you were 20 years old.
(26:10) Martin Atkins: Yeah. Well, I played on Metal Box in ’79.
(26:14) James VanOsdol: Wow.
(26:15) Martin Atkins: Well, I was 20 when I bought my Mickey Mouse watch and Flowers came out in ’81. So, like, to be 20 in America, full stop, you know. Telly Savalas, Kojak, Hill Street Blues, all the—you know, all these TV shows, Taxi, you know. Like, “Oh my God, I’m in America!” Then to go to Disneyland—hey, fuck! Go to a baseball game! I used to listen to baseball on my world service radio and hear these American voices, and to be at a baseball game! So, we were just children experiencing that and then to take that and put it into the album, you know.
(27:06) James VanOsdol: That’s amazing. Staying on the Lydon tip just for a couple more minutes.
(27:12) Martin Atkins: Yeah.
(27:13) James VanOsdol: Commercial aspirations seemed to change after this album. I mean, by the end of the ’80s we had “Seattle,” “Disappointed.” After that, do you think that was a Lydon move to head toward more pop-smart songs or do you think he was guided in that direction?
(27:31) Martin Atkins: Um, well, so the last album I did, we did Live in Tokyo and then This Is What You Want… This Is What You Get. And we were about to be dropped by Virgin. So none of the albums sold massively. Metal Box first edition, Metal Box first edition, Metal Box second edition, the gatefold version of Metal Box, Paris au Printemps, The Flowers of Romance, Live in Tokyo, This Is What You Want… but they were very cheap to make and came out pretty quickly after each other, sometimes two in a year. So there was activity and cash flow. We’re in New York for two years, nothing’s happening except we’re spending money. Richard Branson flew to New York to drop us, to fire us. And Bob Miller, our engineer at the time—almost the producer at the time—said, “Well, you could do a love song.” And so John did he’s like, “Well, this is not a love song!” So maybe that, the success of that, having 300 Japanese children singing that song underneath our hotel balconies, 10 sold-out shows in Tokyo, Australia… I mean, that kind of success helps.
(29:08) James VanOsdol: And that song—so truly, that song is the middle finger it sounds like when you listen to it.
(29:15) Martin Atkins: Yeah. It’s also the—still the biggest-selling single that PiL has. Then after—when I quit, Bill Laswell got involved. There was management, Heaven 17’s management, Keith Bourton—who’s a wonderful person. But you’ve got Heaven 17, you know, “Penthouse and Pavement,” “We Don’t Need This Fascist Groove Thang,” there’s a song. And working with Laswell is very different for John. Next thing you know, Laswell has his tracks. So PiL is not a band anymore. It’s John with some people. Jebin and Marc, who we’d auditioned in Los Angeles and came up with some of the songs for that album— Album, Cassette, CD, yeah. Suddenly they’re phased out of the picture. I think politically it was expedient for Bill Laswell because Laswell had tracks he’d been working on as New York producers did back then with Ginger Baker, a bass player—you know, different people, and he kind of just got John to sing over his tracks.
(30:37) James VanOsdol: Interesting.
(30:38) Martin Atkins: John presents it as, “Oh my God, Ginger Baker wants to work with me!” and like they’re in the studio together. I heard an interview with Ginger Baker where someone’s like, “So, you’re working with Johnny Rotten,” and Ginger Baker’s like, “You what? What’s happening?” And Ginger didn’t know. These were finished tracks that Laswell had that John sang over the top of.
(31:11) James VanOsdol: Okay. I always thought that was like a strange combination, like two of the most mercurial public figures in music.
(31:21) Martin Atkins: I know. And when I found out, I’m like, oh shit, can I have my job back? Let’s do—it’ll be me and Ginger because I watched Cream as a ten-year-old child, you know. But I think, you know, after—when I quit—I don’t mean this to sound however it’s going to sound, unless you think it sounds good, in which case that was intended. Once I quit, there was no longer anybody who would tell John to fuck off. It was just, you know, John being I think a little bit manipulated by people for their purposes, and I mean, but I think Album is a great fucking album.
(32:04) James VanOsdol: I agree.
(32:05) Martin Atkins: “May the Road Rise with You,” they’re on tour with INXS, opening for The Sugarcubes, you know. Hello! It’s kind of a celebration of all of that. It was pretty—I went and saw them a couple of times. Bruce Smith on drums from The Pop Group and The Slits, got along great with Bruce. Yeah. Yeah.
(32:32) James VanOsdol: All right, going back to The Flowers of Romance, which again, Reggie’s on a Saturday night, it is April 11th. Can you talk about the Ritz riot show?
(32:44) Martin Atkins: Yes, I can. I think in retrospect, I think this is a reason that I’m so careful with people. Like with Pigface, you know, I didn’t get along with Meg Lee Chin for a decade and as we started to do more Pigface, I’ve reached out to Meg any time we do anything now, I reach out to Meg in London to see if she wants to do something, which sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn’t. And that’s not for my benefit, that’s—well, maybe it is for my benefit. But me reaching out to Geordie and I’m about to reach out to John has to do with that Ritz show. I was—I didn’t do the Ritz show. It’s the only show I didn’t do from 1979 to 1985. I was sitting in my apartment in Willesden Green, London, across from Stiff Little Fingers’ apartment, and my phone starts ringing off the fucking—not my phone, the payphone at the bottom of the stairs. Like, what’s going on? “Hey, hey! See you in a couple of days!” I’m like, “Yeah, wh—huh? What?” “PiL at the Ritz!” I’m like, “Oh, I guess they’ve moved on and found another drummer.” I was fired anyway, but you know, I thought I would get the call to do that. And I’ve seen the video footage. There’s film footage.
(34:25) James VanOsdol: And so for context, the band played behind a curtain—a video screen.
(34:31) Martin Atkins: A video screen. Okay. So, I move to New York and they ask me—they came to the Mud Club and asked me to rejoin. A Brian Brain show at the Mud Club in New York, we’re doing a cover of “Careering,” I turn around singing “Careering,” John’s in the front row, “Hey!” you know, and so I end up—we’re over at the loft on 19th Street in New York, the phone’s ringing off the hook, it’s Michael Alago calling from the Ritz. “You motherfuckers, that screen is twenty-three thousand dollars!” because the screen was destroyed. Yeah. Video was a big thing back then. So, and Don Letts was around. Now Don used to hang out with us back then and went on to do Big Audio Dynamite, filmed The Clash, he’s an artist and an author in his own right now. But so Don’s around. He was filming on stage during the Ritz. And I’ve seen this footage just once. Jeanette’s on stage, Keith’s on stage… it was a accidental show. Bow Wow Wow cancelled a two-night run. I think Michael Alago, who signed Metallica when he was 23, is walking down the street, he used to book the Ritz, sees Keith, “Keith! Want to do a…” you know, and you would hope—I would have hoped at that point Keith’s like, “Oh fuck, better call Martin.” And he didn’t. It gives you an idea of Keith and my relationship. Anyway, so Keith goes into Manny’s Music on 52nd Street. Behind the counter, [Tapping sounds] on a practice pad is Sam Ulano, who’s no longer with us. And it’s like, “Hey! You’re a drummer! Come and do this thing!” because like, there you go, Keith, all drummers are not the fucking same, mate. Anyway, so the show starts. They’re behind the screen in silhouette, which I guess is the seed for, you know, Pigface shows begin, we’re in silhouette behind screens now, it’s a very theatrical device, you know. And The Who were there—Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend were there. And the crowd is unsettled and there’s a bubbling anticipation. But everybody starts to get nervous because it seems like, is this fucking it? You know? And Keith points to Sam and is like, [Skatting sounds] he’s doing his thing, hitting the keyboards. [Wailing sounds] Hit it! And Sam hits it. He’s a jazz drummer from a 52nd Street music store. [Skatting sounds]
(38:09) Martin Atkins: And my recollection is that I see a look across Keith’s face which I think is horror, but I also—I also take it to be like, “Mwah-mwah, should have called Martin,” you know. And it’s like, clearly that’s not going to work. And that dissolves after a couple of minutes. The crowd get really upset. Keith puts on The Flowers of Romance on a turntable. And everybody quiets down. [Muffled music] I don’t think anybody realizes it’s a record until it skips.
(38:52) James VanOsdol: Oh my God.
(38:53) Martin Atkins: And people lost their shit. Chairs, they’ve had enough. And they really do—John and Keith are experts at crowd control when there isn’t any. “Destroy the screen and you destroy yourselves!” Oh, that’s a good one! That’s great! Which is so much better than saying, “No, this is worth twenty thousand dollars, please don’t,” because then people will. And “Destroy the screens and you destroy yourselves!” I’m like, oh, that’s brilliant. But then the screen is destroyed, the whole thing is just chaos. And there’s a recording—I’ve got the 7-inch single downstairs, I’ve got a bootleg tape from the board. And they really do—I mean, playing drums with those guys was not nothing. I mean, it wasn’t playing drums. You know, we were jamming. We didn’t rehearse, we didn’t rehearse before Paris, we didn’t rehearse before the American tour. Sometimes a song would be five minutes, sometimes it would be eleven minutes. We were jamming not just with each other, but because of the volatile situation on stage. Atlanta, here’s 50 cops coming into the room. Los Angeles, riot police outside on horseback, on stage, German Shepherds on stage in Japan. Just based on reputation? Yeah. Well, and the state of punk in L.A. in 1980, just insane shit, you know. And John and Keith trying not to be a rock band, so we’d dismiss the security. I’m like, oh fuck, you know. Just always constantly trying to be different at the cost of anything sometimes. So we’re on stage jamming through turning on of the fire hoses, invasion of the stage, people stealing the monitors, you know, whatever’s going on, you know, trying to save people from being beaten up by the security that did stay. You see like 14-year-old kids being disappeared under the stage and then being like pushed out the side entrance slightly unconscious, you know. So you’ve got to put a stop to that stuff. So all the time you’re reacting to all—to each other musically but also to the events around you.
(41:40) James VanOsdol: Wow. All right, so Public Image Limited, The Flowers of Romance, the album recreated, reimagined, being rebuilt on stage at Reggie’s on a Saturday night. Chris Connelly taking on the—I think one of the hardest jobs of the night, taking on vocals for this.
(42:01) Martin Atkins: I’m going to disagree. And I think—I think it’s inside of him. You know, he bought Flowers when it came out from John Menzies in Edinburgh. And I hear, I hear John in Chris. So, I see it differently. I think he’s one of the only people I’d ask to do it. And I think—I don’t want to say it comes easy to him, but maybe it does because it’s inside of him somewhere.
(42:37) James VanOsdol: I agree. I mean, who else to ask than one of the most versatile players period.
(42:43) Martin Atkins: Yeah.
(42:44) James VanOsdol: All right, Martin, I thank you for letting me into your—your Airbnb home above the museum. I love what you’re doing. And earlier in the conversation you talked about, you know, “What the fuck am I doing, I’m in my mid-60s.” I think you’re doing all the right stuff. Like you’re bringing music forward and you’re also bringing people—you’re catching people up on where it’s come from.
(43:08) Martin Atkins: Yeah, it—it has been massively unexpected, like everything has been unexpected for the last five years. Kind of loving it.
(43:23) James VanOsdol: And I think maybe I—maybe this is accurate, maybe it’s not. I think that your experience as an instructor has helped you with the museum, like wanting to tell stories and bring people along to where you’re at.
(43:40) Martin Atkins: And yeah, and all these little pieces. Like, you assume a fan knows this and how did Nine Inch Nails get their name, blah-blah-blah, what about this, what about that. And people don’t. And they’re amazed by these tiny pieces of trivia. And it’s weird how these small pieces of stories are the essence of these bigger—these really big things that you think people around the world know this or that, but it’s all these tiny stories that make it real. And I’m loving it.
(44:17) James VanOsdol: Thank you, Martin.
(44:18) Martin Atkins: Thank you.
