What is the state of the music industry in 2024? I know I can’t answer that one, so I invited old friend Tom Schmall to talk about it. Tom’s a Promotion, Marketing, and Artist Development Specialist for Red Light Management. In previous roles, he led promotion and marketing for record companies like Interscope and Maverick, and cut his teeth on independent promotion under Jeff McClusky.
Some of the things we talk about in this episode:
*What mistake do independent musicians most often make?
*When should an artist seek management?
*What is radio’s role in the present day?
*Is there a blueprint for new artists to follow?
*Why do some shitty bands break, while great ones don’t?
*Does “the album” matter in the music industry in 2024?
I feel like we only skimmed the surface in this episode, which means I need to plan for a follow up!
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Car Con Carne is sponsored by Easy Automation: easy-automation.net
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But what about the business of podcasting? I got into that topic back in 2022:
What Can Digital Audio Learn From Traditional Media (Panel): Chicago Podcast Day (Episode 736)
Learn about the business of the blues in this episode from 2018:
47 years of blues, now in book form! Bruce Iglauer of Alligator Records (Episode 195)
TRANSCRIPT (from Apple)
This is Car Con Carne, a Q101 podcast, and Car Cone Carne is sponsored by Easy Automation, easyautomation.net.
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I swear he’s okay with me saying that.
I know what you’re thinking, Tom Schmall.
You know what I’m thinking.
I know what you’re thinking.
So, what is the state of the music business in 2024?
I don’t know, so I brought a friend with me.
Tom Schmall is a promotion, marketing and artist development specialist for Red Light Management.
He’s led promotion and marketing for record companies like Interscope and Maverick, and he cut his teeth on independent promotion under Jeff McClusky.
He’s seen and done some stuff.
He is in it, day in, day out 24-7.
Who better to ask than my pal, Tom Schmall.
Tom, thank you for doing this.
We’re at Johnny’s Beef.
It’s amazing.
As soon as you said it, I was in.
I was like, done, I’m in.
It’s like the siren song leading sailors to their doom.
I say Johnny’s Beef, Tom Schmall appears in Elmwood Park on North Avenue.
Like what time and what day I’m in.
Here’s the thing, I know better.
I’ve been here a million times.
I’ve done a million podcasts here.
I know better than to even try to eat Johnny’s Beef while recording a podcast, Tom.
You’re making the best of your Italian Beef, which you ordered dipped, which I thought was courageous for the car.
It’s working though, barely, but it’s working.
I did the combo, which is really a wonderful, wonderful sandwich.
There is no way on God’s green earth I can eat this in the car without making a mess.
I tucked napkins into my shirt, thinking that’s going to get the job done.
I mean, this is, it’s like a four pound sandwich.
It’s massive.
It is massive.
So my secret, Tom, I’m going to ask you questions and then quietly move to the left and eat as you answer them.
Let’s talk about the music business.
We’ve known each other for decades at this point, which seems crazy to say.
I met you through the music industry.
You’re still standing.
You’re still doing the thing.
I guess let’s talk about your role right now.
Let’s talk about your role as a manager for Red Light.
I have a lot of musicians who watch and or listen to this show.
When does an artist need a manager?
I guess is the question.
Thinking about it from the most grassroots local music level, when do they have to raise their hand and say, I need help with this?
You know, that’s a tough question because it’s like it depends on where they’re at and their development in terms of, you know, I mean, there’s so much that an artist can do these days on their own.
And it’s a matter of, you know, when things are getting busy enough or there’s so much happening in terms of things that have to be done and, you know, the workload to where it gets in the way of the creative process, at that point in time, I think you need to reach out.
And it could be, you know, it could be a best friend or someone, you know, someone just to help you with all the stuff that’s not, that’s, you know, non-creative in terms of, you know, musically speaking, you know.
I think the hardest part for musicians is the idea of sharing the wealth because the wealth isn’t there upfront.
Well, no, but here’s the thing, right?
I mean, listen, you know, this comes up all the time.
It’s like, you know, would you rather make, you know, a little money or okay money and have it all to yourself or would you rather have the opportunity to make a lot of money and have a broadened career and, you know, you don’t get all the money.
It’s like it’s real simple and it’s not hard.
And the thing is, it’s like, it’s like at some point in time, there’s too much work and things will get missed.
You have to have a team.
You have to have a team around you.
And I’m not saying that it’s got to be a massive management company.
It’s got to be, you know, a baller agent.
I mean, those things are great, but it’s like, but you have to have help because otherwise it gets, you get lost, you get lost in all the details and it sneaks up on you quick if things are happening, right?
So it’s, you know, it’s a lot of work and it’s important.
And when we first met, there was a blueprint, there was a roadmap for an independent artist.
We’re going to get to a certain level, we’re going to be able to sell out certain size rooms, we’re going to get attention and then we’re going to get a record company deal.
We’re going to get on a major label.
That’s not the trajectory anymore, but I don’t know if there is a clear cut path for artists in the present day.
There isn’t.
And it’s like, you see all these things online, like all these people who have these, you know, you know, take this course and we’ll, you know, show you how to self-manage yourself or how to be an artist and all this stuff.
And the reality of it is, you know, artists, in my opinion, I mean, artists just have to start.
You just have to start.
Don’t, you know, if you sit there and try to educate yourself about everything, there’s too much to know and a lot of it might not even apply in your case.
So it’s like, you just have to do shit.
You got to start.
You know what I mean?
Like you have, I can swear, right?
Yeah, right.
I said motherfucker.
Oh yeah, I watch this all the time.
I should know that.
So you just have to start.
Like stay focused and just do shit.
And what will happen is things will start to happen, right?
Like you’ll start meeting more people.
You’ll start meeting other musicians and other people in the industry.
But you just have to start and do stuff.
You start there and then from there you can grow.
But you have to start.
If you sit there and try to educate yourself, you’ll be doing it for fucking years.
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Let’s take it back to management.
Red Light manages lots of artists, big and small.
I mean, a lot of artists.
Artists we’re familiar with.
Artists like the Dave Matthews Manor, Smashing Pumpkins.
Can I bring things down to the local grassroots, regional Chicago level for a case study?
Bridget Calls Me Baby is one of the bands.
Different profile, stage of career from a lot of the higher profile acts that your team manages.
Tell me about their progress.
What’s it like elevating them and helping them break?
Well, it’s interesting because when they were first brought in, because the band was from Chicago and West was originally from a small town in Texas, the Lutzinger, Phil Costello was a legendary manager.
He ran Capital Records.
He’s been doing this for a long time.
He’s their manager.
It was brought to him into Red Light.
He called me up one day and said, hey, I got this band.
You have to come out and see them.
I think it was a Monday night in the middle of winter at the empty bottle.
It was 11 o’clock at night.
It was a weird thing.
I went out there and there was Phil standing in the bar.
The band was back in the green room.
I didn’t even meet the band at that time.
They had come out and as soon as they started right away, the whole room, anyone who was in the room was now focused on what was happening.
Actually, I had seen them once before because they opened up for Inhaler.
I think it’s Subterranean for a Lala after show or something or pre-show before that.
I had seen them there first.
It was the same thing.
It was like, hey, you have to see this band.
They came out and they owned the room.
You knew there was something that was there and something that was special.
It was just a matter of what are the next steps because there was nothing.
There were songs that were recorded.
There was a name and there was a logo and that was it basically in the band.
You just start doing the work.
You start putting it out there.
You start creating awareness, building communities.
You start telling everyone you know about them.
Whether it’s in radio or friends or family or agents or you just keep pushing and promoting and talking and having discussions.
Before you know it, people are buying in, jumping in.
Let’s put you on the spot because again, you’re in this 24-7.
You mentioned radio.
When we first met, radio was a critical part, especially in the alternative world, to breaking an artist.
What’s radio’s role in the present day?
It’s different.
It’s completely different.
It’s completely different than it was back in the day.
It’s funny because there’s always this discussion about radio’s demise.
It’s like, oh, radio doesn’t mean anything, or radio is not important.
And it’s just not the case.
It is just not the case.
We have a roster on the ATO side and through Red Light, and a lot of these bands are getting started through radio, whether it’s non-com radio or AAA radio.
People forget that when you have a song on the radio, when it comes to streaming, you have to find the artists, find the songs, people tell me, you know, all these streams.
But when it’s on the radio, it’s like you have an automatic audience, automatically.
And the bigger the market, the bigger the audience.
So it’s…
It probably takes longer, though, for that audience to hear the song than it did back in the day.
I don’t think…
Back, let’s say, 1999, radio is more of a shared experience.
Everyone was listening at exactly 11.52 on a Friday night.
We all heard that song at the same time.
It takes longer for those impressions to take hold.
Absolutely.
However, like, I mean, you know, airplay, as soon as we get airplay, especially in markets like Chicago and Minneapolis, and I mean, you know, and a lot of markets, small or big and small, you know, right away, if something connects and it’s on the radio, it affects ticket sales.
It affects streaming.
It affects, I mean, we see jumps in social media.
I mean, it’s like, you know, so it happened.
It’s happening.
It’s still happening.
And it’s just, like you said, it’s different.
But yeah, it’s like, you know, it has a big impact if you’re the right artist and, you know, and you’re doing all the other stuff, all the other things.
I’m sure you hear this question all the time.
Uh-huh.
And I know there’s not a good answer for it, but I’m going to ask you.
Yeah.
A question on the mind of, I’m sure, a lot of independent artists watching or listening.
How come some shitty bands break and other really good bands never make it past the starting block?
Like, how does that happen?
What kind of unjust world are we living in?
Bad luck, bad timing.
I mean, it sounds crazy, but it’s like, you know, there are some artists that I’ve seen that are super talented and, you know, and they work their asses off.
I mean, it’s nonstop and they just can’t get a break.
It just doesn’t happen.
And then you have someone who just shows up, you know, and for whatever reason, it’s just, it’s something happens, whether it’s a viral moment on TikTok or they end up, you know, somehow getting a song into a TV show or whatever.
And it’s, and that’s the end, it’s gone.
It’s just like, they’re off and running.
So it sounds discouraging, right?
Because you’re an artist, you’re like, well, if it’s all luck based, it’s like, it’s not all luck based.
But I mean, that’s, you know, that’s the truth of the matter.
I mean, especially when like, like back, back when I was in Interscope, we had so many like great bands and big records and it was so much fun.
But for every big record we had and big act we had, we had a dozen that got signed and were like ready to live their dreams and a lot of them really good and never saw the light of day.
It just, it’s just what it is, what it was.
You know, it’s tough.
It’s tough.
In the present day, we are everything, the world is digital.
No kidding.
I’m recording this on a digital camera and a digital hard drive recorder.
That said, do albums even matter anymore?
Or are we still in this world of a la carte single consumption?
Well, I mean, it’s all about how it’s being presented, right?
I mean, you go out, you know, if you’re on Spotify, I mean, it’s like they, the first thing you look up when you’re on Spotify is, you know, their top tracks.
It’s the very first thing you see at the top of an artist profile.
Albums, however, I think are starting to make a comeback because I’ve got a son who’s in college and, you know, he buys vinyl records.
He likes vinyl records.
And he’s listening to albums by Queen now and ELO, and he’s going back and finding all the records.
And it’s just a matter of an artist actually making albums.
I feel like artists want to do that.
They do.
They want to have this complete vision of seven to ten songs.
Yep.
It’s just, you know, it’s a slow comeback, but I think that it all comes down to how the consumers consume the music.
It’s just, it’s, you know, how they take it in.
And the attention span right now is so, so, so short.
It’s just like…
I’m sorry, what did you say?
Yeah, what?
Yeah, it’s insane.
It’s like it’s hard.
It’s like it’s, you know, so…
You talked about radio and how radio can move the needle.
Yep.
One thing I keep coming back to as I talk to artists and people in the industry is the need for curation.
Back in the day, radio was really the sole source of curating new music.
What does curation look like in the present day?
Because when you log on to Spotify, like you said, here are the top tracks, it feels very scattershot.
With all this music available, it feels hard to find the stuff you actually like.
That, in my opinion, is one of the hardest things right now.
It’s one of the most discouraging things, too.
Not discouraging, but it’s like that’s a problem that needs to be fixed, is how people can actually discover it.
There’s so much music out there, so much great music out there, too, that’s never going to get heard.
Just because, I mean, what, there’s like, I don’t know, a hundred or a couple hundred thousand new songs every day.
It’s something banana, like being released.
And now with AI, right?
Now you have these AI companies that are like, you could go sign up for an account, make a song, in an afternoon and put up on the DSPs, and you can monetize it.
Digital service providers for those.
Oh, sorry, yeah, DSPs.
And it’s just clogging up the network even more.
But here’s the thing, though.
It’s happening, it’s happening everywhere, and it’s just some people just don’t know about it.
I mean, look at someone like Zach Bryan, for instance.
He was an independent artist, and he was streaming like crazy.
He found success through YouTube and through all these platforms, and all on his own.
There was no label involved or anything at the time.
And most people didn’t even know who he was until something in the orange, and he started peering on every other feed and every other social media network there was.
It was all over Instagram and Twitter and everywhere else.
And he ended up…
He’s part of Warner Brothers now, but it’s a deal in which, from what I understand, that he controls.
It was his way.
They came to him and he said, this is what I want to do.
And he said, great.
Here’s an album with 80 songs on it.
Put it out.
So it happens.
And there’s a lot of artists like that out there.
So it’s a really tough question to answer, but there’s no one to answer.
You just got to start.
Let’s talk about trends.
I think it’s impossible to predict where things are going because it’s so hard to get a groundswell of fandom in the present day.
It is impossible.
Back when I first knew you, you were in radio and I was with Maverick or Interscope or whatever the time, it was like you always kind of knew things were going to come back around.
It was like rock bands.
Rock bands were massive, massive, massive.
Then it kind of went through the cycle and then it was dance stuff and then it was like singer-songwriter.
And the cycles just kind of came around and you just kind of knew it was on the horizon to come back.
Now it’s like scattershot.
It’s everywhere and you don’t know where it’s going to come from or why.
What would you say is one of the more common mistakes an up and comer might make?
Is it inaction?
Is it?
It’s.
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Absolutely.
I mean, it’s like not only in action, but it’s also, it’s so hard to like shut out the noise.
There’s so much noise.
Right.
I mean, you’re like, you know, I hear from artists all the time that are either, you know, comparing themselves to other artists or they’re watching what this person is doing and how come I can’t do that and how come, you know, they’re doing this and, you know, and we’re not, I mean, just trying to find solutions.
And it’s just, and it’s just like, they spent so much time, you know, on everything else and everyone else that they don’t, they don’t focus on what they’re doing, you know?
It’s like fucking make some music, you know what I mean?
Like go with your heart.
Like you know what I mean?
It’s like, it’s like, do it, do it.
Do what you feel is right for you and just make the music and it’ll come to you.
It’ll come, you know?
I’m sure as I have in radio and media in general, I’m sure you have seen plenty of people who you came up with who are no longer in the industry, who’ve moved on to different careers, whether voluntarily or being wished well in their future endeavors.
What keeps you in this business?
Well, I’ve been fortunate enough to be able to stay, I’m born and raised in Chicago, so I’ve been fortunate enough to be able to stay in Chicago my whole career, which has been amazing in itself.
And I’m a fan first.
I love everything about it.
I love the music.
I love the process.
I love the artist.
I love the struggle.
I love, I mean, I love the, I love it all, confrontation, the heysel.
I’m telling you.
It’s like-
Like the gamesmanship.
Absolutely.
It’s like, you know what?
The worst thing that I think someone can tell an artist is, or someone can, you know, an opinion that someone can have about an artist is like, ah, you know, it’s okay.
And just kind of nonchalant.
I would rather have someone can say, you know what?
This sucks.
I’m not dealing with this.
This is no good.
Because then at least you know, like, okay, you know what?
Now I know where they stand.
Yeah, passivity is the worst.
The absolute worst.
So, you know, and it’s, I’m telling you, it is the highs are highs, the lows are lows.
The successes are, you know, just to be part of it and see it happen for artists is just, I mean, there’s nothing like it, you know?
And there are lows sometimes are heartbreaking, you know?
I mean, it’s, there’s no two ways about it.
It’s like, you know, so, but it’s, but I love everything about it.
Is it safe to say, especially dealing on the management side of things, there is no way to prepare you for the variety of things you face in managing an artist.
The calls that come at three o’clock in the morning.
You will, you, I mean, you would never begin to imagine the things that these managers have to go through sometimes and what they have to deal with.
And a lot of times it’s not even there, you know, it has nothing to do with the artist.
It has to do with, you know, whether it’s, you know, travel schedules or, I mean, the craziest shit you could possibly imagine at the worst times.
It happens and it’s like, you know what, you have to be prepared for it as a manager.
And, you know, you kind of have to have like this fearless nature as well, because, I mean, sometimes shit’s gonna get heavy and you just gotta, you know, you just gotta be able to dive in and deal with it, you know what I mean?
So, cause you’re literally the, you know, the first call, think it’s made a manager for an artist.
It’s like, you’re the first call and it’s, you know, fix it.
All right, making it more consumer focused as a music fan, as we’ve established you are a music fan.
What were some shows that were life-changing for you?
Cause you’ve seen more concerts than I can even fathom.
I mean, I’ve seen so many, so many like unique special shows, Prince at the Metro, they didn’t have to show.
Like three in the morning?
Yeah, I mean, literally went on at three in the morning, it was the middle of summer, but it was unbelievable.
You know, Nine Inch Nails back in the day, never did any kind of like unplug sessions or any kind of like small shows.
And for whatever reason, they decided to do one for Q101.
I was there, I think you and I worked on putting that together.
It was at Chicago Recording Company.
And that was like, it was wild, but it was like, it’s the first time that it ever happened.
It was unbelievable, it was like wild, right?
I got my 12 inch of head like a hole signed by Trent that day.
Oh yeah, it was, and I remember people being in the room and just being like, you know, they had candles everywhere, the whole nine yards.
And I think, you know, they thought they were the biggest Nine Inch Nails fans and they got in there.
And when you’re in that studio, it’s kind of funny.
I think I have seen that.
In fact, I know I have seen that one.
I have it on, I have it on CD somewhere.
Okay, I want it.
Okay, I’ll have to find it.
I’m pretty sure, I’m pretty sure I introduced it by saying it comes down to this, which of course is a Nine Inch Nails lyric.
I don’t know why I remember that.
That was like 99 or 2000, but yes.
Yeah, it was, yeah, so I’ve seen a lot of those things that were like, that you just don’t see anywhere else.
That’s awesome.
And you just reminded me, one of radio’s fatal flaws is the fact that back in the day, and to this day, they’ve never really had archivists collecting the content.
When you say, oh, I have that Nine Inch Nails session, cool, Q101 doesn’t.
Like when I worked at The Loop and they wanted to do something for the 40th anniversary, no one has archives, like good luck finding something from Steve Dahl or whatever, they don’t exist.
It’s crazy.
Do you know what I just found?
I just found a cassette tape because that’s what they put it on.
Eminem, Eminem’s first, the EP came out and he was in Chicago.
So you were at Interscope when My Name Is, you were working that, okay.
And they wanted to get him into B96 and no one would touch it.
They wouldn’t touch him because it was insane.
It was crazy, right?
So, but he was in Chicago because he was getting, I think they flew someone in to get him an expedited passport.
So they came to Chicago.
So they flew in someone from International and had him get in line at five in the morning, whatever, and like, hey, he’s there, let’s get him.
And he also did an in-store that day later on at Tower Records in Schaumburg at the time.
Or, yeah, no, actually in Bloomingdale, that is like no longer there, but anyway.
So I started making some calls and Mankow.
I remember.
Mankow said, I want him, I’ll have him on.
And it was insanity from the minute, it was a circus the minute Eminem walked in there.
And I have the whole, I didn’t even know I had it.
I had the whole thing on cassette.
That’s amazing.
So I just remember that it was in it.
And it just would, it just, Eminem would just would not stop.
It just kept going and going and Kyle, you know, would ask questions and he would like, it was just, it was, it was unbelievable.
And it was a complete circus and it was amazing.
Mankow’s show is a complete circus.
And then you layer Eminem on top of it.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you, you know, and Kyle was trying to be Kyle and Eminem would just like, you know, say the craziest shit.
And Kyle would be like, well, I don’t think, you know, now what, you know, like, okay, like, you know, and then he was just like, they were like going back and forth.
And it was just, I remember being in there and like out, like in the hall, just pacing, thinking, oh my God, like, you know, this is not going to end well for somebody.
So, but it was, it was great.
I love doing interviews like this.
Like there’s no time-sensitive content here.
We’re just talking about shit we’re excited about.
I love doing stuff like this, but we’re going to stop talking because we both realized early on we can’t eat these sandwiches and talk at the same time.
Yeah, I know.
So we’re going to kill the camera out of respect for the people watching.
We don’t, they don’t need to see this.
And we’re going to wrap it up.
Tom, thank you for the, I think this was super informative and interesting.
So thank you for doing this.
Yeah.
I hope, you know, it was a little, I just was like talking out of my ass, but I hope it’s, you know, like it’s just, These are perspectives we don’t get.
Yeah.
As fans, as people who are music adjacent, we don’t get these perspectives.
So I thought it was super helpful.
Yeah.
Well, thanks for having me, man.
It was a lot of fun and I listen to it all the time and I’ve known you a long time.
This is great.
Yeah.
